Understanding “Automatically include new fixed volumes”

Discussion related to "Everything" 1.5 Alpha.
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ChrisGreaves
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:29 pm

Understanding “Automatically include new fixed volumes”

Post by ChrisGreaves »

Please see also these two topics

I am back documenting EFU lists which I started doing at the end of March. I thought it best to work through my own notes to get up to speed.
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To my surprise, as soon as I decrypted/mounted a backup drive as Y:. Everything had it all indexed and on display.
My Tools, Options, Indexes shows me that:-
(1) Drive Y: popped into my Result List without extra action by me
(2) "Automatically include new fixed volumes" is checked ON, however to my mind a 500 GB removable USB backup drive is not a FIXED volume. Yes, I use it for five minutes every night, but it lives in a fire-resistant safe box.
(3) "Automatically include new removable volumes" is checked OFF, however I think of this 500 GB USB drive as a REMOVABLE volume.

Clearly I am confused. Have I misunderstood the meanings of "fixed" and "removable"?
One of the posts referenced at the head of this post states that "Everything 1.5.0.1325a fixes an issue with removed volumes reappearing in the options after a volume change is detected."

Thanks in advance for any clarification. This puzzlement does not prevent me documenting EFU lists. But I think I ought to know whatever i am writing about.
Chris
void
Developer
Posts: 16745
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:31 pm

Re: Understanding “Automatically include new fixed volumes”

Post by void »

Everything will use the system to determine if the volume is "removable".

Typically:
Small USB thumb drives are marked as removable.
Large USB drives are not marked as removable. (even though they can be safely removed)



Early versions of Everything 1.5 did treat volumes that could be safely removed as removable.
However, this was not well received and was reverted back to the old 1.4 behavior.



To check the drive type:
  • Right click a drive and click Properties.
  • Type can be one of the following:
    • Local Disk (fixed)
    • Removable Disk (removable)
ChrisGreaves
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:29 pm

Re: Understanding “Automatically include new fixed volumes”

Post by ChrisGreaves »

void wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:57 am Everything will use the system to determine if the volume is "removable".
Small USB thumb drives are marked as removable.
Large USB drives are not marked as removable. (even though they can be safely removed)
I would like to suggest a revision to the terminology.
To the general user “removable” refers to something that can be instantly removed without physically dismantling the host computer. We can change a hard drive in a laptop to be an SSD drive, but I think that that does not appear to the general user to be removable
Your average user removes Thumb Drives and USB-cabled drives every day; in and out they go, on demand.
The medium in the CD/DVD drive is removable: Press the button, the tray pops out, grab the disk by its edges ...

Removable does suggest, to a computer user, something that is designed to be removed without use of tools, by any user. Not all of us can be trusted to ground ourselves before removing a case and getting stuck in with screwdrivers.
But everyone of us expected to remove memory keys, USB cabled drives, and optical disks.

Might you please consider a different word from Removable, by all means something that reflects "the GetDriveType API call" without a user needing to decipher the GetDriveTypeA function (fileapi.h)?

As a weak corollary I would consider a Fixed Drive to be any medium that requires grounding and the user of a screwdriver.
Removable suggests fingers and thumbs.

Thanks, Chris
horst.epp
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Re: Understanding “Automatically include new fixed volumes”

Post by horst.epp »

2ChrisGreaves
You are often try to make simple things complicated ;)
The average user, you are not one of it, understands the term removable independend of the technical way.
Even some virtual drives have the attribute removable.
ChrisGreaves
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:29 pm

Re: Understanding “Automatically include new fixed volumes”

Post by ChrisGreaves »

You are often try to make simple things complicated ;) The average user, you are not one of it, understands the term removable independent of the technical way. Even some virtual drives have the attribute removable.
Horst; I am trying to make complicated things easier to understand. In particular I feel that the term “removable” should continue to mean
* Admitting of being removed.
* Able to be removed.
* Capable of being removed or taken away or dismissed
I think your ill-thought reaction to my post has ignored the salient features: that the Tools, Options, Indexes dialogues makes poor use of the term “removable”. I have no idea why you think that the Tools, Options, Indexes dialogues are simple. The data brings me to the opposite conclusion.

We are using the adjective “removable” in the context of personal and business computers. I have suggested that a removable drive (or medium such as a CD disk) is one which can be removed with the fingers alone; that is, there is absolutely no need for tools such as screwdrivers, pliers, spanners(wrenches) and the like. As an example, you ought to be able to get on a bus or train carriage and ask any passenger to remove a removable drive.

The use of the term “removable” is the issue here, not my personal activities.

I don’t know how much research you do, but typically I turn to the Forums of Everything and search and then read posts relevant to the subject matter.
Search found 240 matches: Removable
Search found 191 matches: Automatically Include

Note that these search results are Topics, not Posts

Now many of the posts in these topics may overlap, but there are probably 200 Topics, not posts, trying to explain the business of automatically including (or not) removable drives.
And no, I did not read every topic, let alone every post.

But I read enough to realize that the dialogue boxes for Tools, Options, Index are bewildering to the user.

The dialogue boxes for Tools, Options, Index are complex, complicated.

Why are so many people confused about the impact of just these two terms alone?
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How would you go about explaining over a dozen settings shown in the screenshot above for FAT drives, and the dozens in the forms for NTFS, ReFS, network Drives, Folders (meaning included folders), File Lists, Network Index, Properties, Content, and Exclude (meaning excluded folders). Caution: you are looking at possibly a hundred or more terms, many of them identical in wording, but not in impact on the user (as an example “Automatically include new fixed volumes”).

You need to consider this question before you suggest that I am complicating things. Please provide an answer.

That a removable USB drive is considered to be a Fixed Volume while it is sitting in a locked fire-resistant box is yet another complication.

My discussions with Void have brought us to a point where we are agreed that “something must be done”, but given Void’s workload, that is unlikely to arise until 1.6 at the earliest. That is acceptable.
In the meantime dear old 1.5 has been public for at least two years, and I must anticipate that it will be at least another two years before 1.6 becomes available.

What are we to do, in the meantime, with the hundreds of users who have to date contributed 2,766 topics (not posts!) to the debate?

I await your careful answers to the questions I have posed here.
Chris
horst.epp
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Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: Understanding “Automatically include new fixed volumes”

Post by horst.epp »

Hello Chris,
Here my final answer to this topic :)

I have a long expirience from the Total Commander forums
and was even the one which triggered the include of Everything in TC years ago.
Over this time there where of course many users which didn't know about Everything
but we convinced them that it whould enhance their search expirence.
There where many problems new users had with particular settings and features of Everything
but terminology like "Removable volumes" where not of any importance.
The typical user of file managers other than Windows Explorer isn't that thumb
when it comes to configure other tools or understand their functions.

For me Everything will never be a tool for the casual Windows user
as long as it isn't deeply integrated into Explorer.

I welcome your efforts to make Everything better,
but as you already stated David has a big to-do list
which for me contains more importand things as terminology accros the whole settings.

All of this is of course my personal opinion
based on Everything usage since it very first version
running on very large file servers and Desktop PCs.
ChrisGreaves
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:29 pm

Re: Understanding “Automatically include new fixed volumes”

Post by ChrisGreaves »

horst.epp wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 4:11 pmHere my final answer to this topic :)
That's fine, Horst, but I am saddened that you have neither the capacity or the inclination to answer the questions I posed in response to your previous post. I assume that you had the knowledge to answer, but have chosen to withhold it. I could be wrong.
Chris
raccoon
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Re: Understanding “Automatically include new fixed volumes”

Post by raccoon »

Microsoft Windows and the hardware manufacturer of the device determines whether a drive is "Removable" or "Fixed". Based on the drive firmware's Removable Media Bit value of 0 or 1. (Free market capitalism dictates you can buy any drive with any value of RMB bit set.)

Similarly, a Removable drive, as defined by RMB=1 and by Microsoft, has no "Recycle Bin." While a Fixed drive, as defined by RMB=0 and by Microsoft, does get a "Recycle Bin."

You can do anything you want, as long as you do not recycle the technical language of "Removable" and "Fixed" drives/volumes. It's like a medical latin term. Very scientific. Any third or fourth option can be added, using different words.

If you are familiar with TrueCrypt or VeraCrypt, this is also what they mean by "mount as removable." A virtual RMB Bit.
ChrisGreaves
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Re: Understanding “Automatically include new fixed volumes”

Post by ChrisGreaves »

raccoon wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 6:45 pm Microsoft Windows and the hardware manufacturer of the device determines whether a drive is "Removable" or "Fixed". Based on the drive firmware's Removable Media Bit value of 0 or 1.
Hello raccoon.
Thank you for this valuable insight. From the reading I have done so far, it seems as if this design decision was made back in the days when a memory key held 64MB and a USB drive ten or more times that. By this date I have, of course, accumulated old USB drives at 300MB and purchased memory keys with 64GB or more, so my personal collection has examples of reversal of the industry's assumptions.

You can do anything you want, as long as you do not recycle the technical language of "Removable" and "Fixed" drives/volumes. It's like a medical latin term. Very scientific. Any third or fourth option can be added, using different words.
This I can accept; even if the original assumptions are now clouded; it is what it is. (I know from my readings of Richard Dawkins some of the confusion that arises in Biology from historic naming of genus and species)

Onwards and Upwards! I re-visited the veracrypt command line interface page where the "/mountoption or /m parameter" offers "rm or removable: Mount volume as removable medium (see section Volume Mounted as Removable Medium)."

So the user can fake the issue with the appropriate parameter.
I will spend time exploring this so that from this user's point of view, this user's definition of "removable" can make USB keys and USB drives behave the same way. Then of course I will report back here.

Thanks again for providing this data.
Cheers, Chris
ChrisGreaves
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Re: Understanding “Automatically include new fixed volumes”

Post by ChrisGreaves »

ChrisGreaves wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:01 amI will spend time exploring this ...
I am glad I didn't specify how much time - grass clippings began arriving in earnest today, our first sunny day.
After supper I cobbled together a simple batch file (attached) to mount a Veracrypt encrypted drive. The batch file appears to work, although it has no error checking, help text etc.
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I am uncertain of the impact on Everything, and need a clear mind to check this out. Within Everything I note a delay of about three seconds then all the Y-drive entries appear (or disappear) according to my actions within Veracrypt, but "Automatically include new removable volumes" is checked OFF.
So tomorrow morning I will define what I expect, and run through a careful test.
My goal in this exercise is to make the behaviour of my memory keys AND USB drives identical, that is, in my simple user's world, they should both be seen as removable drives.

Cheers, Chris😴
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